Hug Joel Beinin

Interview & Hug by Jawad Ali
Photos by Liv Leader

Joel Beinin is professor of Middle Eastern History at Stanford University. His research has focused on the social history of the modern Middle East and the Arab-Israeli conflict. Dr. Beinin has authored and edited many books, including Intifada: The Palestinian Uprising Against Israeli Occupation, Political Islam: Essays from Middle East Report, and The Dispersion of Egyptian Jewry. He is also contributing editor of Middle East Report.

MWU!: What should Muslims know about your work?

JB: They should know that all Jews don't speak with one voice.

There is an intense internal Jewish debate and criticism of the entire Zionist project. This critique of the Zionist position emerges entirely from a Jewish position. This should be better known.

MWU!: And what has been your contribution to this debate?

JB: Well, there hasn't been much debate with Muslims…

MWU!: …I meant to the debate about Zionism in general…

JB: I lived in Israel in the early 1970's as a member of a Zionist youth organization. I experienced first hand the cruelty of and insanity of Israeli society. In 1973 I left Israel and have been a scholar and activist since, without drawing a sharp distinction between the two. I have tried to articulate that Zionism is not a solution to Jewish problems, and I have done this from a Jewish perspective.

MWU!: What are some of the things that you wish people knew about Zionism?

JB: One. The early Zionists did consider themselves to be promoting a settler colonialism project. They were very clear about it, at a time when it was popular for Europeans to talk of such racism. Two. Before Hitler, Zionism was a very marginal and minority movement. Most Jews had very serious religious or political problems with it. Three. Until 1948, Bi-nationalism (a joint Arab-Jewish state) was considered legitimate, and was supported by a large number of Zionists. Four. Most importantly that Israel was built upon the ruins of Palestinian society. Those are the first four that come to mind.

MWU!: What are some of the most challenging facts of the Palestinian/Israeli history; things that make your students or audience shake their head in disbelief.

JB: It depends on who the audience is. If the audience is ordinary Americans, then they are shocked to hear just about anything in Israeli history. They are unfamiliar with Israel's history of aggression against Arabs, or simple facts such as Israel's collaboration with Apartheid-era South Africa to build nuclear weapons. Americans are generally shocked to discover that there are fundamental problems with the entire Zionist project, and not just with the occupation of 1967. Jewish audiences tend to be less shocked. They tend to be fairly well aware of these historical facts. Some of them support Israel no matter what, and others like Jewish Voice for Peace are highly critical of Israel because they are aware of this history. Those in the middle are more conflicted about how much they should allow themselves to be shocked by Israel.

MWU!: How do you manage to blur these lines between scholarship and activism?

JB: I am a part of the civil rights generation. We were very aware of racism in America. You were a racist if you did certain things to black people, or said certain derogatory things about them. And this is exactly how Israeli society treated the Arabs. It did not take very long to see how deeply and fundamentally racist Israeli society was. One of the things that we had learned in America was that the two groups needed to become comfortable with each other. I wanted to be comfortable with Arabs, so I set out to learn Arabic. Ultimately, this became possible in the 80's when I lived in Egypt. With all the imperfections of their society and politics, Egyptians still live on their own terms, and I think that this helped. I was hired at Stanford as an expert on Egypt, and not Israel and Palestine. After my return from Israel, I had spent the mid 70's organizing Arab autoworkers in Dearborn, Michigan. I was asked to write about Egypt and the Arab working class, because it would be hard get a job as an expert on Israel and Palestine.

MWU!: Is must be easier now to find a job as an expert on Israel and Palestine.

JB: Things have definitely changed. But jobs are still sometimes hard to find for those who are critical of Israel. My former students have jobs at the University of Richmond, Cornell and Duke, for example. So it is possible if you are good and convincing. Of course, there are several schools that would never hire someone critical of Israel. There are other schools that may hire an Arab who is critical, but not a Jew.

MWU!: Are there things that Muslims and Arabs must also know about the history of this conflict, such as the Holocaust?

JB: They must know the details of the Holocaust simply to understand the 20th century, but the conflict and Israel itself make no sense without this understanding. But it is not appropriate to beat the Arabs on the head with this simply to justify the crimes of Israel. The tone is critical. It is abominable to suggest that the suffering of Arabs can be ignored because the suffering of the Jews was greater. But the Holocaust is important if we are talking about the behavior of imperfect societies and the psychic damage that they have to overcome. In The Israelis: Founders and Sons, Amos Elon talks about the Holocaust as the latent hysteria in Israeli life. I agree with this characterization, and we can approach the discussion from this point.

MWU!: Do you see any positive signs on the horizon?

JB: Yes, Jewish Voice for Peace is a good example. The shared cultural events that we have seen locally are encouraging. Even the living room dialogue groups are useful. Some of them make a point to avoid politics, so they are not for me, since I want to talk and do politics as a solution.

MWU!: How about the young anti-globalization movement?

JB: They are important too, since they have learned to recognize oppression. I don't think that their focus is on understanding the structures of power, and on learning how things got to be the way that they are. The folks at the International Solidarity Committee serve a great purpose as witnesses to the oppression, and they can come back and tell their communities about it. But they would be able to participate in change more effectively if they understood the history, structure and nuances of Israel.

MWU!: Do you have any political advice for Muslims in the United States?

JB: I have not seen much political activity from Muslims yet. Of course, the Arab organizations have been around for a hundred years and are very well organized. The Muslim political organizations don't seem to know the language of American politics.

MWU!: Hey, that's why we are here.

JB: Good luck. This is a good start. Look for allies is your struggle--and not just Jews--although they are very important too. A lot of the immigrant communities have fought similar battles with immigration and deportations, etc. The Latino community has a rich history of legal activism. Look at the work that Mark Van Der Hout has been doing. Mobilize forces beyond your immediate community. The real power of the civil rights movement came when they were able to win over mainstream white Americans.