'My daughter didn’t come into this world to be punished': An Interview with Hind el-Hinnawy

By Ginan Rauf

Hind el-Hinnawy, an articulate and highly educated twenty-seven-year-old Egyptian costume designer, filed a paternity suit against the TV actor Ahmed el-Fishawy with whom she said she entered into a civil (urfi) marriage. After el-Fishawy refused to recognize the child that resulted from this unofficial marriage, Hind decided to go public with her case. Nine months later a judge ordered a DNA test to prove paternity and ascertain the child’s lineage. El-Hinnawy’s decision to raise the baby as a single mother and to challenge the double standard that rules women’s lives has been hailed as a brave act of reform and condemned as an irreverent attack on traditional family values. Personally, I came away with the distinct impression that Hind el-Hinnawy is a thoughtful young woman eager to raise her daughter in dignity and to assume responsibility for her actions. In that she has been aided by a network of friends and a family intent on promoting the well-being of her daughter Leena in what is undoubtedly a child-centered community. Talk about the break down of traditional values aside, one got the distinct feeling that Hind comes from a closely-knit family dedicated to the continual growth of its children.

MWU!: Hind talk a little bit about your upbringing. Help us understand how you became what you are.

Hind el-Hinnawy: One particular story stands out. I was a young girl and a teacher hit me. This infuriated my father who came to school with a stick and hit the teacher, just to show what it felt like. “Do you want to be hit with a stick,” he asked. I remember this incident clearly for it gave me courage.

My father taught me to be strong, to always have a point of view and to stand up for myself. I learned to have a distinct point of view from my father, more so than from my mother. She would be the first one to admit it. When we were growing up, my mother went to work in Saudi Arabia. My father refused to accompany her and play the part of the mihrim (male guardian). He didn’t like the Gulf, that whole way of life didn’t appeal to him and he simply refused to leave. But he gave my mother the choice. “Go if you want to,” he said. And she did. That’s how they are together. So from the age of about 8 to 13 I lived with my father.

MWU!: That seems to be a reversal of the typical migration pattern. In most cases it is the father who travels abroad in search of employment opportunities while the mother stays home to raise the children. Would you say that life with your father was exceptional in other respects as well?

Hind el-Hinnawy: My brother and I had a rich and varied cultural life. My father used to take us to the National theatre on a regular basis. He made sure that we visited museums and bought us toys that stimulated our minds. I remember seeing Macbeth when I was only ten years old. Of course at the time I didn’t really understand it and I got bored because I just wanted to be a regular kid and do fun stuff like going to the pool. I always looked forward to the summers when my mother came home and took us to the club. I needed that balance growing up and my mother provided it. I guess you could say that my father was rather authoritarian when it came to cultural matters. There were certain activities he insisted on. But I have no regrets. In retrospect I understand that it was all those experiences that made me think deeply about things. I mean about life in general. Sure it would have been nice to have more balance in my childhood but I appreciate everything he did for us. I really respect and love my father. He gave me so much. He taught us to be independent.

MWU!: Yet it would seem that most Egyptian families of your class tend to be overprotective of their children, particularly their young daughters.

Hind el-Hinnawy: My father wanted us to be quick on our feet, to manage in all sorts of situations. So when it was time to visit my mother in Saudi Arabia, for instance, he’d just drop us off at the airport and leave. We had to do everything on our own. He wanted us to be responsible. It was the same thing when we visited our extended family in Mansura. He’d drive us to the bus station and just leave. Then we were pretty much on our own.

MWU!: It sounds to me like your father empowered you to be a strong independent woman who could act on the courage of her convictions. How do you think this influenced your decision to keep the baby and file a paternity suit?

Hind el-Hinnawy: Of course my family empowered me to take such a strong moral stand and to insist on my distinct point of view. But there was also this strong emotional attachment to the baby from the moment I felt it stirring inside my body. I felt the baby was like a little angel and I wanted to be a mother. Motherhood was very important to me and I was going to make sure that nobody punished my baby or deprived her of her rights. I had the right to choose and I felt that God was on my side right from the very beginning. My daughter didn’t come into this world to be punished. You know I once told Ahmed el-Fishawy your name is not going to add anything to el-Hinnawy. We know who we are. But it is your daughter’s name and she is entitled to it. It is her right (haq) and I will fight for it. I never wanted child support, just a birth certificate and the name that rightfully belongs to my daughter.

MWU!: How did Ahmed and the Fishawy family initially react to your decision to keep the baby?

Hind el-Hinnawy: I don’t think Ahmed was ready to be a father. There was a lot of pressure to get rid of the baby, to go the abortion-hymen repair/respectable marriage route in order to avoid further “scandal” or hush up the entire affair. But like I said before I wasn’t afraid because I felt that God was on my side and I was speaking the truth, haq. An English Muslim man came forward with a marriage offer. He wanted to be Leena’s father but I refused the offer because I really didn’t want my daughter to live a lie. I wanted her to know who she was, where she had come from. Half of her belongs to Ahmed el-Fishawy. I don’t hate him. I actually feel sorry for him. Ahmed went to consult a Sheikh. He wanted to find out if it was haram (forbidden) to have an abortion. According to Ahmed the Sheikh said that it was permissible to have an abortion as long as he paid a fidya (ransom money) equivalent to the price of ten camels or 40,000 Egyptian pounds and fasted for sixty consecutive days. It is the fidya one pays for an accidental death. Now I am not even sure I believe him.

MWU!: Ahmed, then, tried to convince you that there was an Islamically correct way of aborting the fetus. Yet having an abortion seemed to be out of the question for you right from the beginning, even from a religious point of view.

Hind el-Hinnawy: Like I said before the issue for me was motherhood. I had a strong emotional attachment to the baby. I felt it deeply and feared that if I ever had an abortion God would punish me, that I would never be able to have children again. In this I got much emotional support from the outspoken Islamic writer Safinaz Kazem who maintains that urfi marriage is permissible (halal) and abortion is forbidden (haram). I became very good friends with her daughter Nawara who wears the veil. I respect Nawara because she wears the veil and really believes in it and lives it out of real conviction. And that is what I believe we have in common as friends. Their support has been really great.

MWU!: Do you consider yourself a feminist? And if so what is your understanding of feminism?

Hind el-Hinnawy: Yes I do consider myself a feminist. I would like to dedicate my life to defending women’s rights. One can work for change in small ways that may not be immediately apparent but in the long run these things can make a big difference in improving women’s lives. I am not saying that I am a hero but one can work in solidarity with other people for change, for greater equality between the sexes. As for my understanding of feminism I think I need to do a lot more reading and to study feminism in greater depth before formulating an answer to this question. I am currently thinking of studying at the London school of Law from which my father graduated. I would like to focus on women’s rights.

MWU!: Hind do you feel that women have generally been supportive of your decision?

Hind el-Hinnawy: The reaction has been mixed. The Egyptian jewelry maker Azza Fahmy, for instance, sent me a necklace with my daughter’s name Leena written in Arabic calligraphy. That is a form of solidarity. I shall wear the necklace until my daughter is grown up. My daughter’s birth has been celebrated. The Egyptian feminist and documentary filmmaker Ateyyat El-Abnoudy is Leena’s godmother. She visited me, hugged me and told me that she would have been proud to be my mother. This is bringing us together in wonderful ways as we realize our strength. El-Abnoudy was at the hospital while I was giving birth to Leena. El-Abnoudy has great admiration for my mother who has shown such great strength in supporting me despite all the social pressures. My mother has helped me assume responsibility for my act and for this child because she knows the truth and that the truth is on my side. Ahmed confessed to my mother that the baby was his. So in many ways, yes my child is being celebrated. At first my maternal grandfather had reservations but when he saw Leena he simply couldn’t resist her. Now he wants me to bring her over all the time just so he can be with her. So you see there has also been support from men as well. My paternal uncle came from rural Egypt to give Leena a noqta, a sum of money given to a child on the occasion of its birth.

MWU!: Given all the support you have received from your family do you have any regrets about entering into a secret urfi marriage with Ahmed el-Fishaway? Could you explain your motivation for doing so?

Hind el-Hinnawy: I only have two regrets. First, I regret choosing the wrong man. But at the time I knew that my family wouldn’t have accepted Ahmed el-Fishaway as a prospective husband. After all, he hadn’t completed his education and there wouldn’t have been much compatibility between the two families. I felt sorry for Ahmed. He came from a troubled family but I believed that he was a good person, that he could change and that he actually needed me more than I needed him.

< b>MWU!: It doesn’t sound to me like you regard Ahmed El-Fishawy as your intellectual equal.

Hind el-Hinnawy: That is true. He didn’t really know much about the DNA. I had to explain it to him. A director who approached me about making a documentary/feature film about our story put it very well when he said, “There is no role yet for Ahmed. He still needs to grow into it.” This struck me as being very interesting. My second regret is that I kept this marriage a secret from my parents. There are feelings of guilt associated with this secrecy. Even Ahmed felt guilty at times. It’s like I betrayed their trust and that is what I really regret. And when it came time to confess, I wrote them a letter. I wanted them to stand back and reflect calmly on the whole matter. That part was really difficult for me.

MWU!: So why did you keep your marriage a secret given your liberal upbringing?

Hind el-Hinnawy: Like I said before, I don’t think my parents would have agreed to the marriage because of all the discrepancies. At the same time, dating no longer seemed to be enough to fulfill my needs as a twenty seven year old woman. I wanted something more out of a relationship and the urfi marriage seemed like a good compromise. I didn’t want to commit adultery (zina) or do anything haram (forbidden) by religion and this seemed like a good compromise. It gave me a degree of autonomy in conducting my own marital affairs.

MWU!: Yet being a single mother is a formidable task, one that cannot be underestimated in terms of the very real difficulties that lie ahead.

Hind el-Hinnawy: You know before I met Ahmed I always felt like no relationship with an Egyptian man would last forever. A part of me always sensed that I would end up raising a child on my own as a single mother. That is because Egyptian men are easily threatened by successful women. Few relationships can survive that, and I find that most of the young men around here are rather frivolous. It is hard to talk to them about anything serious or to grow together. I am really much more comfortable talking to my mother’s friends or to women of your generation, just like we are doing right now. But I am not afraid to face the future because I also have a strong community of support. My father has promised to help support Leena and he has been getting a lot of work as an economic consultant since she came into this world. I think she is a real blessing and her life will be celebrated.

MWU!: Hind, your case has polarized opinion in Egypt and generated much public debate about urfi marriages. Conservatives forces have lamented the demise of the traditional Egyptian family and the attack on “our” sacred customs. Yet Ali Gomaa, the Mufti or highest religious authority in the country, has encouraged Ahmed El-Fishawy to recognize the child, arguing that the urfi marriage is legitimate due to the presence of one witness.

Hind el-Hinnawy: I am the DNA woman. People in Egypt now understand that paternity can be proven and hopefully this will make men more accountable for their actions, less likely to abuse women in secret and then walk off with impunity. They cannot just father children and then shirk their responsibilities as adults or parents. For five hundred Egyptian pounds a woman can demand to have a DNA test to prove paternity. That is now a distinct possibility and it has entered people’s consciousness. I have set a legal precedent. Men are coming forward to claim their children in order to avoid public exposure. I hope this encourages other women to openly fight for their rights in the family court .

MWU!: Your case has attracted a lot of attention in the United States, with the New York Times featuring an article on the paternity suit filed against the TV star Ahmed el-Fishawy. Many are looking to Hind el-Hinnawy as a hopeful sign of reform in the Arab world. How can transnational communities work in solidarity to promote the cause of women’s rights?

Hind el-Hinnawy: This is a high profile case due to the Fishawy name, but my struggle for justice is hardly unique. There are many women in similar circumstances but not all of them have supportive families or the economic means to fight back in the court system. I am thinking of starting an organization to support less fortunate women. One possible course of action is to sponsor lawyers who are willing to represent these in the court system. One might also think of creative ways to build and extend a network of support. This is not just about Hind el-Hinnawy. It is about a much bigger struggle for justice. I am proud to be part of that struggle and shall dedicate my life to fighting for the cause of human rights.

Ginan Rauf is a Ph.D. candidate at Harvard University currently completing a dissertation in comparative literature focusing on Arab migrant communities, including the Mizrahim. She is an Arab-American worried about the direction of her country.